I was not aware PUF has an airport database. Sorry for that.

No worries - but it's quite telling that our core issue is too many idealists, and not enough standardization in this field of user created content.

Makes me think of cell phone chargers, wall plugs, ADS-B/ Mode-S/ TCAS/ FLARM debates.

"...typische PuF Reaktion: Kindergarten..."

Erinnert mich an die Reaktionen, die seinerzeit hier (z.T) auf die "sprechende Checkliste" von Alexis erfolgten. Da stellt jemand ein kostenloses (oder preiswertes) Tool vor, das jedermann nutzen kann - nicht muss - und erntet dafür Kritik im Sinne von "brauch ich nicht" o.ä.

Aber, wie wir gelernt haben, ist das ja ein Grundrecht!

> I was not aware PUF has an airport database. Sorry for that.

It's okay for Jan Brill to continue the discussion here. Thank you, Jan!

There is now a Guest mode, so you don't have to create an account to add reports.

Es gibt jetzt einen Gastmodus, so dass Sie kein Konto erstellen müssen, um Berichte hinzuzufügen.

Good morning, you still have not answered my question, Peter:

Well, I'd rather ask you, for starters: Why don't you want to make it available? I perceive EuroGA mostly as a great platform of an idealist. Was or am I mistaken?

So, why not set it up as Georg described it? I think most of us pilots are on the same page here - we like to contribute our time and info, share it in a timely concise manner with the international language of aviation.

You can put in a clause that commercial users (SD, FF) would have to pay a fee to cover your team's of idealists expenses, the users would still be happy no matter how they use it (PC, mobile device, as a SD subscriber), and if anyone like openflightmaps and the like contributes idealistic content for all of us as open source projects, great.

So, why don't you want to head that route? Answer appreciated.

Good wind-up :)

Peter, you are advertising here on a competitor's forum, even after you've been informed that there already is such a database of PuF. You have the reputation (due to lack of personal experience, I cannot judge that) to censor on your forum. AND you want to appeal to all GA pilots to help you out.

How about you don't dodge answers but simply provide an answer. You were the one who asked me to ask the others (EDDH.de. etc.) why they don't make the data available. Well, I rather do the obvious: Asking you.

So either you can live up to free speech, open debate, intellectual honesty or the spirit of free debate has not really infected you.

This is core reputation management: The editor in chief of "Fliegermagazin" took part in this forum, anonymized as a woman. We still make fun about that years later. You do not stoop that low, because you use your full name. However, if you you suggest I ask the others -

I ask you. (and will do so every time you publish here)

So, why won't you make the data we the users are providing to any commercial or non-commercial user available under any term you could decide on?

You should ask the question to all the other (previously established) database owners first. Nobody is doing what you suggest.

Regarding "censorship", that is nonsense. The Guidelines are published and it is basically not allowing personal attacks. Most forums do allow personal attacks because not allowing them dramatically reduces participation and therefore advertising revenue. Of course, those who wrote personal attacks and saw them deleted called it "censorship" because this arouses strong emotions. I am sure you do not want me to post details of why exactly it is an effective tactic in some countries...

Peter, I rarely contribute here on the PuF forum - but since we've met in person several times and I'm at least a reader of both forums and I find the euroga airport database an ambitious and valuable project, let me add some thoughts here.

First of all, I would like to urge everyone to not make this thread about comparing euroga and PuF forum moderation policies. They are very different and each have their pros and cons, but I find this is not the topic of this thread and I think it's a dangerous path to go down here and it would only the harm the much more productive discussion of the airport database and the way its data is handled.

As has been pointed out, there are already several - more or less failed - such airport database projects out there (and, from the perspective of German users, one very successful -> eddh.de). From what I understand, for a long time, an own euroga project was not happening because of this very thought: Already several such databases and none are really useful because of the non regularly maintained content etc and maybe some other flaws.

You now have the - maybe somewhat unique! - chance to build something that is really backed by a large community and that comes to live and that can serve the entire European pilot community. I understand a LOT of thought and consideration has gone into building the database in a manageable, secure, and accessible way with as little flaws as possible. That is great stuff and I think - before everything else - deserves a great deal of recognition and appreciation.

Now, the next thing that is needed is sustainable (!) community support. The German community is quite large - and is currently very focused on eddh.de - not only for German, but for European airfields, albeit in German language only. It is going to be somewhat difficult, but also somewhat rewarding, to convince large parts of that community to contribute to the euroga database. And you will not get people to contribute their stuff on multiple sites. People will need to make a choice. I'm a good example: I'm a fan of the euroga community, but as of today, if I want to find out about a specific airfield, my one-stop shop is eddh.de as I KNOW it has the content I'm looking for. I don't NEED any other site at the moment. But for the sake of a European project, I would be willing to switch over - but there needs to be a unique selling point.

Georg has made the point quite clear and I think it was a very valid point: If you suceed in positioning the euroga airport database as the "single source of truth" in Europe for airfield reviews and let others USE that data, that would be the key reason for people to consider posting to that "single source of truth" rather than to one of the many scattered, more or less proprietary databases that they are loyal to already.

This has two components: The first is to let other non-commercial sites such as eddh.de tap on the data, possibly even (maybe in a future version) with a translation feature. This would require a clear statement on terms of use and something like API access. I really don't see any reason why one wouldn't want to take this path if this project is to suceed. Cooperation is the SINGLE key to stand out - competiion and protectionism is not. And has never been on the open web community of the last decade.

The second component would be commercial users such as SkyDemon and others. If you could jump over your shadow and let those providers use the euroga data as well, it would be even more beneficial to the success of the project. It is wholly beside the point to keep pointing fingers at the others and saying "look, they don't open up their data?". NONE of them are on a position to build this single source of truth like the euroga community is - but letting them include the data into their services - even if they make money with it - benefits the entire community much more than fragmented databases ever could. As you don't have commercial interests with this, you should not be afraid of this. Then again, it could even be debated if commercial users should pay a usage fee that contributes back into the euroga community for other projects - even that is thinkable. But if you're uncomfortable with commercial use, how about just starting with the first component and let non-commercial external users access the data.

Good luck and hope this moves in the right direction!

Best regards

Patrick

But I am asking you. Please explain.

@Peter Holmes

Concerning your comments I have a few annotations:

I think old is not necessarily equivalent to bad:

eddh.de might be quite oldfashioned in its website design, but it does pretty much its job. Even without any fancy programming I can read it on a PC, on an iPad or even my phone. And as this is mostly text and not pictures, even the download happens quite fast.

To nearly all airports in Europe with runway longer than 800 m and accessible to GA I find reports in eddh.de.

And even old reports from 2005 and earlier seem valuable to me:

I use them like oil samples: On the one hand if a limit is exceeded (e. g. high landing fees, complicated airside access) this raises a warning flag, on the other hand I might see a trend in reports through time in one direction (less and less parking space available, requirements like slot or handling popping up...).

And this is all based on a limited number of pilots writing in German.

So for me this tool, despite its age, is still very valuable.

The advantage I see in your tool is local pilots writing about their local airports. Those are the people that know the airport inside out and how to get around certain obstacle (e. g. ramp access only handling in Spain, MFGZ handling in LSZH etc.). This is missing in eddh.de mostly outside Germany.

So why don't you ask Sigi, the operator of eddh.de, and Jan, the operator of this forum and the associated report platform, to cooperate:

You three could share all reports among each other. There could be a maschine translation for the reports. This would open up more reports for all your websites and broaden the amount of readers and contributors for each website.

Just my two cents...

Spot on, Guido.

Nevertheless I'd be surprised if you receive an answer...

You should ask the question to all the other (previously established) database owners first

I am glad, Achim took the opportunity to act instead of hiding behind what everyone else did, when he started his Autorouter.

Die Algorithmen und Daten von autorouter sind nicht komplett öffentlich, nur die Nutzung ist kostenlos.

Ich halte den Ansatz "yet-another-airport-database" für uninteressant. Nützlich ist so eine Datenbank nur, wenn sie marktführend ist und dazu gehört m.E. zwingend, dass die Daten public domain sind, d.h. jeder sie für seine Zwecke direkt nutzen kann. Sowohl über eine Schnittstelle (API) als auch über einen tagesaktuellen Download der gesamten Datenbank. Gäbe es eine solche Datenbank, würde jeder sie nutzen. Autorouter würde sie z.B. direkt verlinken, SkyDemon würde sie nutzen, etc. Mehrsprachige Einträge sind wichtig, ähnlich wie bei TripAdvisor bindet man eine Online-Übersetzung ein.

Die momentan beste Ressource im europäischen Markt ist mit weitem Abstand eddh.de.

Vielleicht findet Dein Team ja mal Zeit...
Ich nutze seit Jahren auch primär EDDH.de.

Sabine hat Sigi übrigens im April interviewt:

https://www.fliegermagazin.de/news/eddh-de-der-macher-der-website-im-neuen-podcast/

Zum Heulen sind so Sätze wie "Der Hoster sagte, mit 1800 Mails komme der Server ggf. auf Blacklists, ich sei ja nicht der Einzige auf dem Server. Da habe ich dann den Newsletter eingestellt" (frei nach Gedächtnis zitiert). Beeindruckend, wie man so etwas mit den Mitteln eines Hosting-Billig-Produktes (eins über der 1&1 Web-Briefmarke?) aufbaut.

Die EuroGA-Flughafendatenbank https://airports.euroga.org hat verschiedene Erweiterungen, einschließlich Links zu AIPs und Diagrammen, wo diese verfügbar sind.

Sven bitte beachten Sie: Da andere, aus Deutschland, hier andere Datenbanken erwähnt haben, gibt es keinen Grund, diesen Beitrag erneut anzugreifen.

English original:

The EuroGA Airport Database https://airports.euroga.org has various enhancements including links to AIPs and charts, where these are available.

Sven please note: since others, from Germany, mentioned other databases here, there is no reason to attack this post again.

Hi Peter,

I guess it's tough to swallow your own medicine, but I gotta disappoint you, I will persist - you brought up the argument that I should ask the others, but no, since you brought it up yourself and here first, I shall insist:

How come you don't make the user provided content available for everybody? What's the reasoning? Please elaborate.

(I am not talking to the others, I ask you)

Sven please note: since others, from Germany, mentioned other databases here, there is no reason to attack this post again.

Der Inhalt ist für jedermann zugänglich - unter https://airports.euroga.org.

Wir haben auch einen "Gast"-Modus, in dem Piloten neue Berichte erstellen können, ohne sich anmelden, ein Konto einrichten usw. zu müssen.

English original of above machine translation:

The content is available to everybody - at https://airports.euroga.org.

We also have a "Guest" mode where pilots can create new reports without having to login, create an account, etc.

@Sven and Peter:

A couple of people are now on their way to the grocery store to get some potato chips and stuff ... this thread has everything a great movie needs !

Machine translation:

Ein paar Leute sind jetzt auf dem Weg zum Supermarkt, um ein paar Kartoffelchips und so zu holen ... dieser Thread hat alles, was ein spannender Film braucht !

So,

"The content is available to everybody - at https://airports.euroga.org.

We also have a "Guest" mode where pilots can create new reports without having to login, create an account, etc." -

can it be used for free by competitors now? I am sorry, I am not that well versed in the technical/ IT side of it, just by your terms and conditions.

Was your answer dodging my question, perhaps?

Die EuroGA-Flughafendatenbank https://airports.euroga.org hat einige Verbesserungen erhalten.

Einige Länder stellen Eurocontrol ihre VFR-Flughafen-AIPs nicht zur Verfügung. Sie sind nur über nationale Websites erhältlich. Wir fügen einige davon aufgrund der Nachfrage der Öffentlichkeit hinzu. Wir haben jetzt Kroatien und Österreich.

Flughafen NOTAMs kommen von Eurocontrol, und wenn nichts zurückgegeben wird, fragen wir NOAA ab.

Alle Daten sind aktuell und stammen aus offiziellen Quellen. Wir speichern nichts.

Mehr als 400 Piloten aus ganz Europa haben in nur wenigen Wochen Berichte beigetragen! Vielen Dank an alle!

(automatische Übersetzung durch DeepL)

Das ist ja phantastisch. Und, stellt ihr diesen Datenschatz auch anderen zur Verfügung? Ach nein. Und, warum nicht?

Natürlich steht sie allen zur Verfügung.

Die URL lautet https://airports.euroga.org