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31. Juli 2020: Von Norbert S. an Sven Walter Bewertung: +2.00 [2]

Unsachlich ist eher, ein nachweislich ad absurdum geführtes Zertifikatsproblem mit "Haben-wir-nicht-nötig - es gibt schon welche" Attitude abzuschmettern, Euer Ehren. Egal wie oft wir es hier schon hatten. So wie die DFS ja auch sagt, GPS Approaches brauchen wir nicht mehr, es gibt schon welche.

Das Ganze mit dem Grundrecht freier Meinungsäußerung zu verbinden, ist kindisch.

31. Juli 2020: Von Sven Walter an Norbert S.

Nein, Norbert, mit Verlaub.

Kindisch ist das darauf Herumreiten. Er hat sachlich einen absurden Fehler und schreibt den rein. Und ist der Meinung, dass die 5. Datenbank (und die vier sind schon arg gestreut, bislang... leider) möglicherweise keinen Mehrwert verspricht. So what.

Der Vergleich mit der DFS hinkt noch absurder, als in einem Posting zwei Gedanken zu äußern. Darüber aber lange zu debattieren, ist vollkommen absurd. Der Rest der Welt hat keine Zertifikatsprobleme. Der Rest der Welt kann jetzt zwischen fünf Datenbanken wählen. EuroGA ist mE sehr geeignet als Plattform, so toll ich EDDH mit der langen Vorlaufgeschichte auch finden mag - aber es ist auf deutsch, und außerhalb der BRD nicht sehr verbreitet. You-Fly - wenig Aktualität, leider, bei FF werden es immer mehr Spritpreise, aber einfach wie bei EDDH zu gucken, was die Landegebühr für eine typische SEP vor 2 Monaten war, gibt's auch nicht.

Wir brauchen Tausende GPS-Approaches auf jede Grasbahn, auch ohne IFR-Bauschutz. Wäre allein schon für den Notfall als 3D wünschenswert, jenseits des Regelbetriebs. Und das alles mit den Basics in jedem Navigationsprogramm, in jedem Land, einfach nur mit ARP, Startbahnlänge für den Notfall. Hat aber nix mit dem Posting zu tun ;-).

31. Juli 2020: Von Markus S. an Sven Walter Bewertung: +2.00 [2]

Hab's mir gerade angeschaut. Finde den Europäischen Ansatz ganz gut. Lebt halt wie jede Platform von unseren Eingaben...und sollte vor allem nicht zu überfrachtet sein. EDDH so toll ich das finde.....ist halt irgendwann vom Interface her stehen geblieben. Eigentlich schade aber auch verständlich wenn man damit wie bei so vielen Web Projekten kein Geld verdienen kann. Insofern herzlichen Dank an den Betreiber für seine ganze Arbeit!

31. Juli 2020: Von Guido Frey an Markus S. Bewertung: +6.00 [6]

Ich finde den Ansatz des niedrigschwelligen Angebotes bei eddh.de super. Es ist keine Registrierung notwendig, die Bewertungen werden als Freitext eingegeben und die jeweils letzten Bewertungen der Woche sehe ich chronlogische unabhängig vom Platz aufgelistet.

Der Freitext hat m. E. den Vorteil, dass auch viel zwischen den Zeilen rüberkommt. Nachdem ich zum jeweiligen Platz drei oder vier Reports gelesen habe, habe ich m. E. meist schon ein recht gutes Bild über den Ablauf und die Stimmung dort (großer Platz mit oder ohne Fokus auf GA, verschnarchter Vereinsplatz oder freundlicher Fliegerverein mit hilfreichen Menschen, etc.).

Auch die Verbindung mit dem Anflugfoto, den groben Landebahndaten und der Webseite des Flugplatzbetreibers zusammen mit den nächstgelegenen Plätzen machen es für mich zu einem sehr guten Recherchetool.

Natürlich würde ich mir hier eine europäische Lösung wünschen, so dass noch mehr detaillierte Reports zusammenkommen. Allerdings würde ich mir dann vom Euro-GA Tool wünschen, dass diese Features von eddh.de mit integriert werden und dass jeder seine Reports in seiner Muttersprache verfassen kann (und ähnlich wie bei booking.com eine maschinelle Übersetzung dahinter steht). Ich glaube, das würde die "Einstiegshürden" nochmal verringern.

Vielleicht ließe sich ja auch eine Kooperation der bisherigen Plattformen erzielen, so dass das beste aus allen Welten zusammenkommt und die schon dort gesammelten Informationen weiterhin und dann allen zur Verfügung stehen?

1. August 2020: Von Georg v. Zulu-eZulu-schwit-Zulu an Guido Frey Bewertung: +1.00 [1]

Exakt. Ich würde eddh.de gewissermaßen mit einem Wiki vergleichen: Man liest vorher die letzten Bemerkungen, und wenn der letzte Kommentar 4 Jahre alt ist, hinterlässt man ein "Alles noch super, Landung jetzt 7 Euro". Man gibt also als Idealnutzer nur das Korrektur-Delta ein. Das ist ein struktureller Unterschied zu den "Formular-Datenbanken".

Mein größtes Problem ist aber ebenfalls die Vielzahl der allsamt sympathischen "Gib uns Futter"-Datenbanken. SkyDemon? eddh.de? Runway-Map? Jetzt EuroGA? Und dann noch Treibstoffpreise pflegen...

Erstens pflege ich nur eine Datenbank, dass ist für mich aktuell eddh.de. Ich würde diese Datenbank, die ich "füttere" nur wechseln, wenn es eine Datenbank gibt, die meinen Content frei allen anderen wie SkyDemon etc. zur Verfügung stellt. Das setzt für mich voraus:

- einen "Bulk-Download" als JSON/XML

- einen sehr begrenzten Disclaimer wie "Where applicable the citation / display of data has to provide <user@euroga> has author and a link to ...".

Der gegenwärtige Copyright-Vermerk, der nur das Zitieren von 1-2 Sätzen erlaubt, gibt das bei EuroGA nicht her. Schade, denn eigentlich hat EuroGA dafür für mich die beste Credibility.

Wollte vor vielen Jahren auch bei eddh pireps eintragen. Damals über mehrere Ziele in Griechenland die ich besuchte -natürlich heute nicht mehr aktuell- hatte aber nicht geschafft gehabt. Der verlangte von mir irgendetwas über "Tagesschau" oder "Tagesthemen" oder "heute Journal" weiß nicht genau und hatte damals gleich gelassen.
Reingeschaut hatte aber immer!

Beitrag vom Autor gelöscht
1. August 2020: Von Peter Holmes an Aristidis Sissios Bewertung: +1.00 [1]

Thank you all for very interesting comments.

The first thing I notice is that nobody has criticised the design of the EuroGA Airports site. That is very positive; a lot of thought has gone into it, to make sure it works on all devices in common use in the general aviation sphere, from phones, to tablets, and equally importantly on laptops or PCs on which you can see everything nicely. It is not a phone/tablet app which is irritating (or functionally limited, or simply not available) to use on a PC.

It is indeed true that the existing databases do not address GA activity well. They were set up in the old days, 15-20 years ago, when everybody who could do a bit of PHP was doing websites, and together with Europe using a number of different languages, none of them got very far for European flying. And nothing (nothing that got anywhere) was done in English, which is the standard aviation language. And most of the data is really quite old. I see a lot of reports from 2005, which is almost useless. The entire management and therefore the friendliness of the airport has probably changed.

Another thing is that whether this type of project succeeds depends on how much hard work is put into promoting it, supporting it, enhancing it, etc. If you just build something and then walk away, hoping that people will jump in in their thousands, and keep doing so, that won't happen. 20 years ago, yes, because everybody was desperate to participate on the internet, but not today. This project is going to always be supported and maintained - because we have an active forum which is successfully donation funded (which avoids the difficult ethical issues with advertising, but that's another discussion) so will always be there.

Anyway it is almost impossible to make money with a specialised website. The reason is that so much traffic has been lost to facebook, twitter, instagram, etc. So advert clicks produce very little money today. Maybe enough to pay for hosting but nothing like what is needed to pay a commercial rate to a programmer.

EuroGA Airports is the work of several people. One is a server expert, one is a PHP expert, one is a CSS expert. I specified the overall functionality. A part of the design brief was to avoid fashionable frameworks which nobody will know 10 years from today and which are often irritating because they try so hard to be fashionable (e.g. making the Back button on the browser lose everything you typed; everybody hates that).

Security is also good, not only in design but also with backups. So the data you have contributed is safe. There is a robust system for keeping spammers and other similar people out of it. This is a big problem today, with spammers trying to join up almost daily. Any site which lets anybody to enter data is going to be constantly hit, so somebody needs to watch it all the time and clear out the mess from fake passport sellers which was posted overnight. Soon, the owner will get fed up with the work and will walk away. This wasn't a problem 10 years ago.

To make it even more friendly, images and PDFs up to 40MB can be uploaded. The images are stored 1600 pixels wide (plenty big enough for any client device) but you don't have to waste your time reducing your images before upload. Modern phones can produce 10-20MB image files. Canon CR2 RAW files can be uploaded directly, as can HEIC (Apple iOS native Camera Roll format).

Someone mentioned free text. There are two free text boxes: one for the airport restaurant and one for general comments. You can put a large amount of text in these.

The bit about quotation of 1-2 sentences, I don't understand.

Any input on useful features is always welcome.

Machine translation:

Ich danke Ihnen allen für Ihre sehr interessanten Kommentare.

Das erste, was mir auffällt, ist, dass niemand das Design der Website der EuroGA Airports kritisiert hat. Das ist sehr positiv; es wurden viele Überlegungen angestellt, um sicherzustellen, dass sie auf allen gängigen Geräten funktioniert.

im Bereich der allgemeinen Luftfahrt, vom Telefon bis zu Tablets, und ebenso wichtig auf Laptops oder PCs, auf denen man alles gut sehen kann. Es handelt sich nicht um eine Telefon-/Tablet-App, die irritierend ist (oder funktional eingeschränkt oder einfach nicht verfügbar) zur Verwendung auf einem PC.

Es ist in der Tat wahr, dass die bestehenden Datenbanken die GA-Aktivität nicht gut abdecken. Sie wurden in den alten Tagen, vor 15-20 Jahren, eingerichtet, als jeder, der ein bisschen PHP beherrschte, Websites erstellte, und gemeinsam Da in Europa viele verschiedene Sprachen gesprochen werden, kam keine von ihnen für die europäische Luftfahrt sehr weit. Und nichts (nichts, was irgendwo hingelangt wäre) wurde in Englisch, der Standardsprache der Luftfahrt, getan. Und Die meisten Daten sind wirklich ziemlich alt. Ich sehe eine Menge Berichte aus dem Jahr 2005, was fast nutzlos ist. Das gesamte Management und damit die Freundlichkeit des Flughafens hat sich wahrscheinlich geändert.

Eine andere Sache ist, dass der Erfolg dieser Art von Projekten davon abhängt, wie viel harte Arbeit in seine Förderung, Unterstützung, Verbesserung usw. gesteckt wird. Wenn man einfach etwas baut und dann weggeht, in der Hoffnung, dass die Menschen zu Tausenden einspringen und dies auch weiterhin tun, wird das nicht geschehen. Vor 20 Jahren, ja, weil jeder verzweifelt versuchte, sich im Internet zu beteiligen, aber heute nicht mehr. Dieses Projekt ist wird immer unterstützt und aufrechterhalten werden - weil wir ein aktives Forum haben, das erfolgreich durch Spenden finanziert wird (was die schwierigen ethischen Fragen bei der Werbung vermeidet, aber das ist eine andere Diskussion), so wird es immer da sein.

Jedenfalls ist es fast unmöglich, mit einer spezialisierten Website Geld zu verdienen. Der Grund dafür ist, dass so viel Verkehr durch Facebook, Twitter, Instagram usw. verloren gegangen ist. Klicks auf Werbung bringen also sehr wenig Geld heute. Vielleicht genug, um für das Hosting zu zahlen, aber nichts im Vergleich zu dem, was nötig ist, um einem Programmierer einen kommerziellen Preis zu zahlen.

EuroGA Airports ist die Arbeit von mehreren Personen. Einer ist ein Server-Experte, einer ein PHP-Experte, einer ein CSS-Experte. Ich habe die Gesamtfunktionalität spezifiziert. Ein Teil der Designaufgabe bestand darin, modische Frameworks, die in 10 Jahren niemand mehr kennen wird und die oft irritierend sind, weil sie so sehr versuchen, modisch zu sein (z.B. die Back-Taste des Browsers dazu zu bringen, alles zu verlieren, was Sie eingegeben haben; jeder hasst das).

Auch die Sicherheit ist gut, nicht nur im Design, sondern auch bei Backups. Die Daten, die Sie beigetragen haben, sind also sicher. Es gibt ein robustes System, um Spammer und andere ähnliche Personen davon fernzuhalten. Dies ist eine große Problem heute, mit Spammern, die fast täglich versuchen, sich anzuschließen. Jede Website, die es jedem erlaubt, Daten einzugeben, wird ständig angegriffen werden, also muss jemand sie ständig beobachten und das Chaos beseitigen.

von Verkäufern gefälschter Pässe, die über Nacht aufgegeben wurde. Bald hat der Besitzer genug von der Arbeit und geht weg. Vor 10 Jahren war dies noch kein Problem.

Um es noch freundlicher zu machen, können Bilder und PDFs bis zu 40 MB hochgeladen werden. Die Bilder werden in einer Breite von 1600 Pixeln gespeichert (groß genug für jedes Client-Gerät), aber Sie müssen Ihre Zeit nicht damit verschwenden, die Ihre Bilder vor dem Hochladen. Moderne Telefone können 10-20MB Bilddateien erzeugen. Canon CR2 RAW-Dateien können direkt hochgeladen werden, ebenso wie HEIC (Apple iOS natives Camera Roll-Format).

Jemand hat freien Text erwähnt. Es gibt zwei freie Textfelder: eines für das Flughafenrestaurant und eines für allgemeine Kommentare. In diese können Sie eine große Menge Text eingeben.

Das bisschen mit dem Zitieren von 1-2 Sätzen verstehe ich nicht.

Jeder Input zu nützlichen Funktionen ist immer willkommen.


*** Übersetzt mit www.DeepL.com/Translator (kostenlose Version) ***

1. August 2020: Von Georg v. Zulu-eZulu-schwit-Zulu an Peter Holmes Bewertung: +4.00 [4]

Hi Peter,

thank's for writing "Its machine translated" - I was unsure if to reply in English and chose our "default language" german.

So, to express my point "The bit about quotation of 1-2 sentences, I don't understand."

What I am looking for to contribute input is an *open* database, that anybody can cite and use. In my imagination of a perfect world, I do contribute only to one database, that ideally

  • is run most favorably by a organisation like yours (no commercial interest, no startup),
  • has a "beyond lifetime" perspective (not run by a single person, may he do a great job for decades)
  • has a modern, helpful, still timeless user interface

All this would be strong Pros for your solution, and thank you for building it!

BUT:

I would love to see my contributions to the database also e.g. in the Pireps in SkyDemon. It would be absolutely fine for me if RunwayMap includes them, or EDDH. When I try to help other pilots with sharing experiences, I want ideally to reach any pilot - no matter the website or App he is using.

This is currently prohibited by your copyright. I cited from https://www.euroga.org/system/terms-and-conditions:

You're welcome to link to the site and make "fair use" of the content elsewhere (e.g. quote a sentence or two), but we'd appreciate it if you link the content back to the original on this site or at least attribute it to this site.

This is pretty opposite from "take all our database content and feel free to embed it into your app". However, the later would be what I want. If Alexander (from this forum here) builds a version of a KML map to make the data visible in GoogleEarth - he should be allowed to, SkyDemon and all the others should be allowed, too. It might be fair to ask for a source quote, may it be a link to the EuroGA website, and/or a citing of the author (e.g.) "<user>@EuroGAMap" or whatever.

But reusing the content should be even "promoted and eased" by putting a daily dump of the database in static and machine readable form (XML, JSON) onto the website. I would be happy to tell SkyDemon: "If you want my input, take it from EuroGA!"

I am not sure if all users and potential contributors agree, maybe some would prefer to only and explictly support EuroGA and exclude commercial usage of their contributed content. However, e.g. Jan Brill as the owner of this forum, also runs such a database - and is SkyDemon or any other project "bad"?

1. August 2020: Von Sven Walter an Georg v. Zulu-eZulu-schwit-Zulu Bewertung: +1.00 [1]

Spot on. None of us minds to have one pro bono for all standard, usable by commercial providers, and would applaud the effort done behind the scenes - one airport at a time, if guaranteed that this is the permantently open to all standard of current data to mutually help each other in the GA community.

Georg has summed up perfectly what would motivate me to update every fuel price, landing fee, pic and description of used airfields (and I honestly have never cared about the restaurant. Not once in my flying career spanning 21600 nm).

1. August 2020: Von Peter Holmes an Sven Walter

Try asking all the other database owners out there what they think of sharing their content :)

As with open source software (which, except for very popular examples, is great until the programmer gets himself a girl) it isn't going to happen. Nobody wants to put in the effort.

And most of the other examples are either directly commercial (Skydemon, €100/year?, Foreflight, €100-300/year?) or peripherally commercial (e.g. PUF, funded by advertisements).

machine translation:

Versuchen Sie, alle anderen Datenbankbesitzer da draußen zu fragen, was sie von der gemeinsamen Nutzung ihrer Inhalte halten :)

Wie bei Open-Source-Software (die, abgesehen von sehr populären Beispielen, großartig ist, bis der Programmierer sich ein Mädchen besorgt) wird das nicht passieren. Niemand will sich die Mühe machen.

Und die meisten anderen Beispiele sind entweder direkt kommerziell (Skydemon, €100/Jahr?, Foreflight, €100-300/Jahr?) oder peripher kommerziell (z.B. PUF, finanziert durch Werbung).

1. August 2020: Von Georg v. Zulu-eZulu-schwit-Zulu an Peter Holmes Bewertung: +5.00 [5]

Dear Peter,

just IMHO worth to mention: You are writing here in forum of a competitor promoting your competeting "products". Jan Brills "AID" was announced in 2005, see here: https://www.pilotundflugzeug.de/artikel/2005-08-26/Flugplatzdatenbank

It is just worth to mention regarding the advantages of openess.

Fun point: Even these 15 years ago, people asked: "Why should I switch from Siggis EDDH?".

I hoped your answer would be just a "We haven't thought about that". But it sounds rather like a "Why should we, if the others don't do it?". Simple answer: Because it would be your Unique Selling Point. You are in the right position not having a commercial background, you can even beat Siggi regarding "We are not a one-man-show" (and some other aspects). You can simply be Wikipedia of European GA, but it sounds like you are trying another website lockin of user generated content. If I ask "Hey Google" or "Alexa", I will get Wikipedia data. And this encourages me to contribute to Wikipedia. And nobody considers Wikipedia to be the unknown content source Amazon & Google make profit from. Once you could e.g. provide the telephone number (and existance) of a car sharing / rental company at an airfield, I would love to have this information included in Achims AutoRouter briefing. Or would like Alexanders GoogleEarth KML file - based on EDDH data - be based on "your / our" data as well.

If I don't get you by arguing from your perspective, please take my perspective:

When I update EDDH, there are two motivations:

  • It is the "Thank you, here my 2ct" to the community for the content provided
  • It is the platform of largest reach

Why should I switch? Mainly for one reason: Because I could tell Siggi if asking: "I switched to EuroGA. Please, take my contributions from there - it is free, and wrap them in the other content of your website. I am using it now, as it can potentially show up anywhere".

P.S. I pay happily > 100 EUR per year for SkyDemon, but not for their pirep database. It has some minor other features wrapped around the pirep database, that make it worth paying for it.

1. August 2020: Von Sven Walter an Peter Holmes Bewertung: +5.67 [6]

Well, I'd rather ask you, for starters: Why don't you want to make it available? I perceive EuroGA mostly as a great platform of an idealist. Was or am I mistaken?

So, why not set it up as Georg described it? I think most of us pilots are on the same page here - we like to contribute our time and info, share it in a timely concise manner with the international language of aviation.

You can put in a clause that commercial users (SD, FF) would have to pay a fee to cover your team's of idealists expenses, the users would still be happy no matter how they use it (PC, mobile device, as a SD subscriber), and if anyone like openflightmaps and the like contributes idealistic content for all of us as open source projects, great.

I don't mind Windy making money. Since they make my flight preparation a breeze, based on taxpayer funded core data and processed with research algorhythms by world leading institutions. And the idealism of an entrepreneur who wants to have easily downloaded wave and snow forecasts.

GA is getting killed by overregulation and unnecessary burdens. If the pilot community can put some idealism in for a common cause, I praise and supportthat. And report on airfields. AirNav, EDDH, anywhere. Many of us do that in clubs for the mutual, selfless, non commercial, idealistic good.

So, why don't you want to head that route? Answer appreciated.

1. August 2020: Von Peter Holmes an Georg v. Zulu-eZulu-schwit-Zulu

I was not aware PUF has an airport database. Sorry for that.

1. August 2020: Von Sven Walter an Peter Holmes Bewertung: +6.00 [6]

No worries - but it's quite telling that our core issue is too many idealists, and not enough standardization in this field of user created content.

Makes me think of cell phone chargers, wall plugs, ADS-B/ Mode-S/ TCAS/ FLARM debates.

3. August 2020: Von Georg v. Zulu-eZulu-schwit-Zulu an Peter Holmes

> I was not aware PUF has an airport database. Sorry for that.

It's okay for Jan Brill to continue the discussion here. Thank you, Jan!

7. August 2020: Von Peter Holmes an Georg v. Zulu-eZulu-schwit-Zulu

There is now a Guest mode, so you don't have to create an account to add reports.

Es gibt jetzt einen Gastmodus, so dass Sie kein Konto erstellen müssen, um Berichte hinzuzufügen.

7. August 2020: Von Sven Walter an Peter Holmes Bewertung: +2.00 [2]

Good morning, you still have not answered my question, Peter:

Well, I'd rather ask you, for starters: Why don't you want to make it available? I perceive EuroGA mostly as a great platform of an idealist. Was or am I mistaken?

So, why not set it up as Georg described it? I think most of us pilots are on the same page here - we like to contribute our time and info, share it in a timely concise manner with the international language of aviation.

You can put in a clause that commercial users (SD, FF) would have to pay a fee to cover your team's of idealists expenses, the users would still be happy no matter how they use it (PC, mobile device, as a SD subscriber), and if anyone like openflightmaps and the like contributes idealistic content for all of us as open source projects, great.

So, why don't you want to head that route? Answer appreciated.

7. August 2020: Von Peter Holmes an Sven Walter Bewertung: +0.00 [2]

Good wind-up :)

7. August 2020: Von Sven Walter an Peter Holmes Bewertung: +6.00 [6]

Peter, you are advertising here on a competitor's forum, even after you've been informed that there already is such a database of PuF. You have the reputation (due to lack of personal experience, I cannot judge that) to censor on your forum. AND you want to appeal to all GA pilots to help you out.

How about you don't dodge answers but simply provide an answer. You were the one who asked me to ask the others (EDDH.de. etc.) why they don't make the data available. Well, I rather do the obvious: Asking you.

So either you can live up to free speech, open debate, intellectual honesty or the spirit of free debate has not really infected you.

This is core reputation management: The editor in chief of "Fliegermagazin" took part in this forum, anonymized as a woman. We still make fun about that years later. You do not stoop that low, because you use your full name. However, if you you suggest I ask the others -

I ask you. (and will do so every time you publish here)

So, why won't you make the data we the users are providing to any commercial or non-commercial user available under any term you could decide on?

7. August 2020: Von Peter Holmes an Sven Walter Bewertung: +1.00 [1]

You should ask the question to all the other (previously established) database owners first. Nobody is doing what you suggest.

Regarding "censorship", that is nonsense. The Guidelines are published and it is basically not allowing personal attacks. Most forums do allow personal attacks because not allowing them dramatically reduces participation and therefore advertising revenue. Of course, those who wrote personal attacks and saw them deleted called it "censorship" because this arouses strong emotions. I am sure you do not want me to post details of why exactly it is an effective tactic in some countries...

7. August 2020: Von Patrick Whiskey Echo Yankee an Peter Holmes Bewertung: +10.00 [10]

Peter, I rarely contribute here on the PuF forum - but since we've met in person several times and I'm at least a reader of both forums and I find the euroga airport database an ambitious and valuable project, let me add some thoughts here.

First of all, I would like to urge everyone to not make this thread about comparing euroga and PuF forum moderation policies. They are very different and each have their pros and cons, but I find this is not the topic of this thread and I think it's a dangerous path to go down here and it would only the harm the much more productive discussion of the airport database and the way its data is handled.

As has been pointed out, there are already several - more or less failed - such airport database projects out there (and, from the perspective of German users, one very successful -> eddh.de). From what I understand, for a long time, an own euroga project was not happening because of this very thought: Already several such databases and none are really useful because of the non regularly maintained content etc and maybe some other flaws.

You now have the - maybe somewhat unique! - chance to build something that is really backed by a large community and that comes to live and that can serve the entire European pilot community. I understand a LOT of thought and consideration has gone into building the database in a manageable, secure, and accessible way with as little flaws as possible. That is great stuff and I think - before everything else - deserves a great deal of recognition and appreciation.

Now, the next thing that is needed is sustainable (!) community support. The German community is quite large - and is currently very focused on eddh.de - not only for German, but for European airfields, albeit in German language only. It is going to be somewhat difficult, but also somewhat rewarding, to convince large parts of that community to contribute to the euroga database. And you will not get people to contribute their stuff on multiple sites. People will need to make a choice. I'm a good example: I'm a fan of the euroga community, but as of today, if I want to find out about a specific airfield, my one-stop shop is eddh.de as I KNOW it has the content I'm looking for. I don't NEED any other site at the moment. But for the sake of a European project, I would be willing to switch over - but there needs to be a unique selling point.

Georg has made the point quite clear and I think it was a very valid point: If you suceed in positioning the euroga airport database as the "single source of truth" in Europe for airfield reviews and let others USE that data, that would be the key reason for people to consider posting to that "single source of truth" rather than to one of the many scattered, more or less proprietary databases that they are loyal to already.

This has two components: The first is to let other non-commercial sites such as eddh.de tap on the data, possibly even (maybe in a future version) with a translation feature. This would require a clear statement on terms of use and something like API access. I really don't see any reason why one wouldn't want to take this path if this project is to suceed. Cooperation is the SINGLE key to stand out - competiion and protectionism is not. And has never been on the open web community of the last decade.

The second component would be commercial users such as SkyDemon and others. If you could jump over your shadow and let those providers use the euroga data as well, it would be even more beneficial to the success of the project. It is wholly beside the point to keep pointing fingers at the others and saying "look, they don't open up their data?". NONE of them are on a position to build this single source of truth like the euroga community is - but letting them include the data into their services - even if they make money with it - benefits the entire community much more than fragmented databases ever could. As you don't have commercial interests with this, you should not be afraid of this. Then again, it could even be debated if commercial users should pay a usage fee that contributes back into the euroga community for other projects - even that is thinkable. But if you're uncomfortable with commercial use, how about just starting with the first component and let non-commercial external users access the data.

Good luck and hope this moves in the right direction!

Best regards

Patrick

7. August 2020: Von Sven Walter an Peter Holmes Bewertung: +1.00 [2]

But I am asking you. Please explain.

7. August 2020: Von Guido Frey an Peter Holmes Bewertung: +13.00 [13]

@Peter Holmes

Concerning your comments I have a few annotations:

I think old is not necessarily equivalent to bad:

eddh.de might be quite oldfashioned in its website design, but it does pretty much its job. Even without any fancy programming I can read it on a PC, on an iPad or even my phone. And as this is mostly text and not pictures, even the download happens quite fast.

To nearly all airports in Europe with runway longer than 800 m and accessible to GA I find reports in eddh.de.

And even old reports from 2005 and earlier seem valuable to me:

I use them like oil samples: On the one hand if a limit is exceeded (e. g. high landing fees, complicated airside access) this raises a warning flag, on the other hand I might see a trend in reports through time in one direction (less and less parking space available, requirements like slot or handling popping up...).

And this is all based on a limited number of pilots writing in German.

So for me this tool, despite its age, is still very valuable.

The advantage I see in your tool is local pilots writing about their local airports. Those are the people that know the airport inside out and how to get around certain obstacle (e. g. ramp access only handling in Spain, MFGZ handling in LSZH etc.). This is missing in eddh.de mostly outside Germany.

So why don't you ask Sigi, the operator of eddh.de, and Jan, the operator of this forum and the associated report platform, to cooperate:

You three could share all reports among each other. There could be a maschine translation for the reports. This would open up more reports for all your websites and broaden the amount of readers and contributors for each website.

Just my two cents...

7. August 2020: Von Sven Walter an Guido Frey

Spot on, Guido.

Nevertheless I'd be surprised if you receive an answer...


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